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 Success or failure

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Darrin
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PostSubject: Success or failure   Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:14 am

I have been looking at the card draw system for MET and it doesnt add up. A person with a dice pool of 3 should get on the average 1 success, but the chance is minimal that you would. There is an average of 1 out of 3 dice of success, but the draw system gives a 1 out of 5 or so. I have some ideas, but want to here what others think.

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DocHolliday
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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:14 am

HST Darrin wrote:
I have been looking at the card draw system for MET and it doesnt add up. A person with a dice pool of 3 should get on the average 1 success, but the chance is minimal that you would. There is an average of 1 out of 3 dice of success, but the draw system gives a 1 out of 5 or so. I have some ideas, but want to here what others think.

I am very open to the idea of a new system for the draws.

What I will say is that the ECC or DRC dice-mod system will be murder if we port it over on average.

I've looked at the retooling of Doc, and there are some checks where I can be rocking, potentially, as many as 20 dice for a single check. Even at a -3 for DRC, I would be starting with 9 successes before a check.

Gross, my friends. Gross.

What I would suggest is that we say instead of needing 10 for the first success, why don't we just say every 5 is a success. That means that most people will succeed at most actions most of the time.

Like real-life.

After all, even if you have a dice pool of 3, you should be succeeding the overwhelming majority of the time. And the times that you fail at that, well you drew an ace anyway.

I would also suggest that for 'contested' actions, we just draw and compare totals instead of figuring so weird alchemy to resolve disputes.

Just a thought.
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Dr. Alfred Frost

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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:20 am

I mostly agree that starting at 5 would probably be better, and would be closer to the dice rolling system as far as successes are concerned.

However, with the contested, I think that we should still be figuring the actual number of successes each person is getting as it can really make a difference to how everything ends up in the end.
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DocHolliday
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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:09 am

My experience with the MET draw system, comparing numbers straight across rather then successes would be a more accurate depiction of skill proficiency. Honestly contested checks are pretty rare anyway, but here's an example or two...

Ex1: Daeva Dallas is trying to charm the pants off Michael Mekhet. She has a Majesty of 3, a Manipulation of 5 and a Persuasion (or whatever Entrancement uses) of 3. She has a base draw of 11. Our Mekhet friend has a BP of 4 and a Composure of 4, for a base draw of 8. Dallas draws a 3 giving a 14. In the current system, our Mekhet friend needs to draw a 2 or better to resist this power. By comparing actual numbers, they would need to draw at least a 6 or better. A much truer depiction of actual skill.

Ex2: Mekhet A is looking for Nos B. Mekhet A has a Wits of 4, Investigation of 4 and an Auspex of 3 (11 again). Nos B has already pulled his successes for Obfuscate (with an Obfuscate of 5, Int 4, Stealth 4 and a specialty, he rocks out with a 14 pull). Nos B drew a 6, for a 20 (3 successes in current system). Mekhet A, with his current draw, needs a 9 or higher to see Nos B anyway. Comparing successes or actual numbers almost won't matter; Nos B is likely going to get by just fine.

Basically what I'm saying is, by comparing the actual DRAWS in contested actions, we have a dramatically smaller chance of saying 'You both drew the same total, so defender wins', and have a much much higher chance of saying 'You clearly succeed/fail.'

It doesn't make the system any more complicated, it just cleans up who WINS in contested actions. The comparing actual successes favors the defender in a disproportanate degree in my humble opinion.
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Spider

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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:28 am

DocHolliday wrote:
It doesn't make the system any more complicated, it just cleans up who WINS in contested actions. The comparing actual successes favors the defender in a disproportanate degree in my humble opinion.

In the beginnign of the Cam chronicle, they had it changed to 10 for the first success and then every 3 after that. That works better math wise, but was a pain in the ass.

Starting at 5 is pretty logical
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Darrin
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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:47 am

It looks like doing a divisibility by 3 makes the most sense. The big issue seems to be if we are going to use the Draw or Rock, Paper, Scizers.

Drawing usualy nets an extra success if we start at 5 and make it divisible by 3, or 1 less if starting at 10.

What are we thinking would work the best.

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DocHolliday
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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:10 am

HST Darrin wrote:
It looks like doing a divisibility by 3 makes the most sense. The big issue seems to be if we are going to use the Draw or Rock, Paper, Scizers.

Drawing usualy nets an extra success if we start at 5 and make it divisible by 3, or 1 less if starting at 10.

What are we thinking would work the best.

Simpler is better, in my view.

My problem with the draw system is a one=failure. That's always pissed me off. That means that no matter how badass you are at something, 10% of the time, you goof up. But, that's the problem with a clean system.

Rock-Paper-Scissor systems have the draw-back that you stop playing the odds and start playing that man. As most people can agree, we tend to develop patterns, which can play to the player's benefit (or detriment if they are predictable). It's not that the math is any more or less difficult, since you are still working a weird mathmatical equation before you throw chops. It's the fact that after that math you then compare your wits to the ST or whatever in an attempt to net more successes.

Some people like that. I've been on both ends where I've tested up a bajillion times and killed people with a single strike or soaked almost an entire blow, or started with 10 successes and ended the night with 2.

The draw system is fast, fair, and brutal. The RPS system invites further contest. Both have merits. I slightly favor a draw.

As for a 5= success vs success = (Total-10)/3+1 .... well, 5 is easier to remember. The Rule Of Five. Round down. Done.
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Ken Bryce

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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:41 pm

I'm a fan of draw but instead of 1= failure, 1= -5 (or some other appropriately painful number) and draw again, a second 1 means crit fail.
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DocHolliday
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PostSubject: Re: Success or failure   Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:42 pm

Ken Bryce wrote:
I'm a fan of draw but instead of 1= failure, 1= -5 (or some other appropriately painful number) and draw again, a second 1 means crit fail.

Well, Crit-Failures are supposed to be incredibly rare in the new system. The one way to get one is to have a dice-pool (or 'pull' for MET terminology) of 1 or less. Then you have a chance-pull. Getting a one on that draw means a 'dramatic failure', and they're incredibly nasty.

I'd be for a pull of one equally a -5 rather then an auto-failure. If you're super twinked out for something, you'll probably have a pull of 15+ for it, so a -5 would still let you succeed.

-Rob.
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